 000175647
 Concatenated JPRS Reports, 1989
 Document 2 of 3
 Classification:
 UNCLASSIFIED
 Status:
 Document Date:
 08 Jul 88
 Category:
 Report Type:
 JPRS Report
 Report Date:
 Report Number:
 JPR5-USS-89-004
 UDC Number:
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 Author(s):  SOTSIOLOGICHESKIYE ISSLEDOVANIYA deputy chief editor
 Gennadiy Batygin; time and place not specif?ed]
 Headline:  `The Time Is Favorable...' A Conversation with a Priest of
 the Russian Orthodox Church
 Source Line:  18060002 Moscow SOTSIOLOGICHESKIYEISSLEDOVANIYA in
 Russian No 4, Jul-Aug 88 (signed to press 8 Jul 88) pp
 38-49
 Subslug:  [Interview with Innokentiy, candidate of theology, teacher
 at the Leningrad Seminary for Monastic Priests, by
 SOTSIOLOGICHESKIYE IS5LEDOVANIYA deputy chief editor
 Gennadiy Batygin; time and place not specified]
 FULL TEST OF ARTICLE:
 1.  [Text] In 1988 at the initiative of UNESCO, not only Christians
 but also people of various religious and political convictions mark
 the millennium of the Christianization of Russia (988-1988).  This
 date is is propitious occasion for thinking--read-s~t-n.-~y-abou~~he-  -
 problems of religious life in the. USSR. As is known, the basic
 principles and practice of its state regulation were established in
 circumstances that were most unfavorable for realism.  This is
 exactly why up to now it has been very difficult to eli~.inate the
 ??zone of silence "  that has existed here and to call a spade a
 spade. A mutual desire to deal with this complexity was expressed at
 the meeting between CPSU Central Committee General Secretary M.S.
 Gorbachev and the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia, Pimen, and
 members of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.
 2.  Public interest is growing in questions of the interrelationship
 between religion and culture, ethics and politics.  Under the
 conditions of glasnost and the open clash of viewpoints, a
 re-evaluation of the cultural-historical legacy is taking place and
 new hopes are being barn. A dialogue on these problems is held by
 doctor of philosophical sciences, deputy chief editor of
 SOTSIOLOGICHE5KIYE ISSLEDOVANIYA, Gennadiy Batygin and candidate of
 theology, teacher at the Leningrad Seminary for Monastic Priests,.
 Innokentiy.
 3.  [Batygin] Your Reverence, first of alI I would like to say a few
 words about why I asked you to hold this conversation. "lien I was
 still a student in the philosophy faculty at the Moscow State
 3~3
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 University I, and the overwhelming majority of my fellow students,
 and perhaps even the teachers, had only.a quite vague idea about
 priests in the church. The view of priests as tricksters and
 disseminators of spiritual narcotics, a unique kind of  "spiritual
 raw brandy " --a view traditional for the proclaimed ideological
 stereotypes--could be clearly discerned in this vagueness. This idea
 prevented us from any dialogue with you in the press. For a long time
 an invisible but quite rigid line of prohibition was drawn between
 me, a sociologist, and you, a pastor of the Russian Orthodox Church.
 It also seemed to me that you were separated not only from the state
 but also from the usual life of laymen, or at-least tha*. you had no
 contact with our daily problems. Only once did I think about this
 line, when the now late Valentin Ferdinandovich Asmus, the teacher of
 my teachers, for some reason put aside his exercise boot's and talked
 to us, the second-year students, about the meaning of the words
 "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."  The meaning of the
 words from the Sermon on the Mount has not been reduced and it set
 down roots through the millennia. And each day, including today, we
 face the eternal problems. One of them is the search for truth. In
 this regard our dialogue today is extremely topical and essential for
 the process of renewal, because apart from anything else, renewal
 also means a return to values that are eternal but subject to doubt.
 Dialogue is essential for joining the strength of believers and
 non-believers in solving urgent, and vital. question. And we have many
 believers in the country-- from 15 percen~o -bE~-percent -of---the___ _ ____._._._
 population in various regions.
 4.  Today, in the atmosphere of glasnost and democratization we .are
 learning to deal with voluntarist stereotypes that have compelled us
 not only to accept the inevitable as the reality but also pretend
 that many of the processes that do not fit into the ideological mold
 of the  "new man"  somehow do not exist at all. This also applies in
 full to the reproduction of religious values--the so-called
 individual vestiges. I think that we rightly talk about the
 coexistence of a religious culture and a secular culture in Soviet
 society, and a diversity of types of perceptions of the world--a
 diversity that cannot be reduced to some scheme of  "the scientific
 and the nonscientific."  How can this very complex sociological
 problem be resolved?  First and foremost by not dramatizing the
 differences in views that are well known and by seeking out what it
 is that unites us. And what unites us is responsibility for the
 future, the desire to preserve the cultural heritage, and belief in
 the need to renew life and general human spiritual values.
 5.  The restructuring is not easy. Even recently, when the editorial
 office of the journal SOTSIOLOGICH$SKIYE ISSLEDOVANIYA asked you to
 enter into discussion with the well-known American Sovietologists and
 religious expert William Fletcher about believers in the USSR, it was
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 terrible for me: what might happens The stereotype of `cavalry "
 propaganda--with bells. onl-- enrooted in the consciousness hampers
 us: believers and church people are either stupid or have unseemly
 designs. Soviet people should know that the church is separated from
 the state but not separated from society.  In this connection your
 view on sociological problems in the spiritual life of our fellow
 citizens and your position as a theological scholar, historian and
 simply a man are of undoubted interest.
 6.  [Innokentiy] Forgive me, but the last-named position seems to me
 to be perhaps the one that is most suitable for this kind of
 dialogue. Any  "churchman,"  "theological scholar "  or  "historian "
 in our country lives in the same social conditions as any person. As
 a citizen he is subject to the same legal standards and social laws.
 Perhaps the  "proud stare of the foreigner "  of an American
 Sovietologist would not catch this, but for us this should be
 obvious.
 7.  With regard to the  "stereotype of cavalry propaganda,"  for you,
 a sociologist, it is no secret what its influence has been on the
 shaping of the intellectual climate and ideological standards. At
 least your early ideas about us, the clerics of the Russian Orthodox
 Church, bore, I would say, the veneer of a certain romanticism, and
 the propaganda to which you refer could hardly have courted on that.
 In fact, the alluring prospect was separate  from the ~ust~ and
 bustle of this world. But as you rightly noted, an invisible but
 quite rigid line of prohibition was in fact drawn between us. It
 exists even now in the consciousness of many, including quite
 respected people. A more critical look at the line between the
 "permitted "  and the  "banned "  will, I hope, help in some degree to
 place in its proper perspective the question of freedom of choice and
 assessment of the cultural legacy.
 8.  [Batygin] You mentioned freedom. F. Engels wrote that free will
 is the ability to make decisions from a position of knowledge. But it
 would seem that people have different knowledge and a different
 perception of exactly the same realities of life. There are probably
 even people today who would like to force you to abandon your
 religious convictions and enforce a  "materialistic truth."  And not
 at all because religiosity, which  "has still not been overcome,"
 interferes with their lives; they are obsessed with concern for what
 is near and dear to them, its  "ideological maturity,"  and
 ultimately,  "all-around and harmonious development."
 9.  Here we are not dealing only with religion. We ofte:. encounter an
 alternative postulation, as, for example, one that is far from being
 a private issue: are you for perestroyka or against it? This kind of
 open and naive sociologism seems to be generally radical and
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 testifies to the revolutionary intentions of the questioner. The
 trouble is that almost everyone is for perestroyka... Including those
 who are for coercive assertion of the  "ideal."  I have a cause for
 complaint: I read in one newspaper that there is no .class struggle in
 our country, nor, consequently, class enemies, but in numerous
 commentaries I have been categorized as an enemy of the people, and
 there have been demands for my repression. Is this also today's
 method of polemic? Again we see how the destructive forces. are
 growing, how some people want to find  "the enemy,"  ho~~ they try to
 exhume from the underground the ideology of pogrom.
 10.  We have become accustomed to living by creating within ourselves
 a wordy mythical set of scenery and we fear to look there behind the
 scenery bathed in artificial light, into the shadow cast by the
 scenery, into the unlighted and gloomy space where we find the
 "kitchen "  of the play being performed: into the semi-darkness quite
 different from the nuances of the producer and the technical and
 rhetorical equipage.  Now it is becoming obvious that we are
 simultaneously the audience and the actors in this spectacle of life,
 and that it serves no purpose to point the finger at anyone. The
 devil often turns up behind the most desperate  "fighter."
 11.  However, the process of renewal is irreversible. The link of
 time is being restored and we are beginning to look into history for
 the real causes of human tragedy. A re-eva~uatlon-o?~ra~ues-is~-taking---____________._
 place, including the values of the past, and it is difficult and
 painful. Obviously this is the way it should be: memory is ambiguous;
 it depends on what we want to see in the past and on the kind of
 intellectual and moral baggage with which we move into the past.
 12.  (Innokentiy] When. preparing our students at the theological
 schools in the Moscow Patriarchy, for a number of historical reasons
 the task of giving them a serious philosophical training has not been
 brought up. Therefore although you recalled the definition of free
 will, what came to mind for me was a definition of freedom in
 general, one that I heard from one of the church bishops at a recent
 international scientific conference in Mascow on problems of theology
 and spirituality devoted to the millennium of the Christianization of
 Russian  "Freedom is an attitude of perfect love betwee:~ two beings,
 between God and us."  In this context talk about class enemies is
 hardly apropos. Why cannot the break in the link with time be
 restored by human hands? The real reasons for human tragedies are now
 clear to many, and perhaps they were earlier.
 13.  Xou talk about the irreversibility of the renewal of life in our
 country. Here, it would seem that boundless prospects are being
 opened up for the unsophisticated gaze.  Just the mere formulation
 " re-evaluating the cultural-historical legacy "  is worth it. For a
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 desire to look at the past in and of itself imposes an  "intellectual
 and ethical baggage."  You have probably recently been nearing, even
 when standing in line, about the  "permanent value of the cultural
 legacy."  T suspect that no none, including people with a  "higher
 education,"  can provide a clear definition of these coi,cepts.
 14.  Tt is as if everything were intuitively clear. I recall the shy
 servant Ivan Ivanovich Brilliantov, who late in the last century made
 known the long-since closed and almost deserted Ferapontov monastery.
 He not only drew attention to our ecclesiastical, historical and
 cultural holy things but in 1918 even traveled there from Petrograd
 so as to continue the work on its restoration despite everything.
 15.  The priests Pavel Florenskiy and Mikhail Shik; and Count Yu.A.
 Olsufev. We have no right to forget their role in the preservation of
 the Troitsa-Sergiyev Monastery.  Professor I.Ye. Yevseyev of the
 Petrograd Theological Academy, who sponsored a scientific publication
 of the Slavic Bible and raised the question of a more perfect Russian
 translation of it. Academician N.K. Nikolskiy, who as long ago as
 1902 embarked on the titanic work of preparing a collection of the
 works of Russian writers since ancient times. If historical
 circumstances made it possible to accomplish merely the undertakings
 mentioned, the question of the cultural legacy would be clearer for
 16.  However, this does not at all mean that in our times our culture
 does not have its devotees. Thus, for example, Marina Sergeyevna
 Serebryakova and her associates are heroically preserving the
 Cathedral of Our Lady in Vologda Oblast, with?its frescoes of
 Dionysius--the only complete architectural and artistic ensemble
 dating from the 15th century.
 17.  The conference that I mentioned, which was attended not only by
 theologians but also philologists and historians from scientific
 centers abroad and from Moscow University and the USSR Academy of
 Sciences, showed that the tasks of preserving monuments of Russian
 national and general human importance can be resolved despite the
 obvious historical losses.
 18.  But let us return to the theme of  "prohibition."  For the
 "line of prohibition "  that you mentioned passed through the
 consciousness of many, and it now passes not only through the
 environment of social relations but also the field of spiritual
 relations. Here we are dealing with an unambiguous division between,
 if I may expresses it thus,  "the sheep and the goats,'  typical both
 of a certain genre of atheistic studies of religion and of certain
 popular works on the history of ancient Russian literature and the
 arts. What I have in mind is the division between religious content
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 19.  [Batygin] But this is obvious to many people. In the secular
 literature it is accepted that we distinguish between the icon as a
 cult object and as an artistic image.  For example, the Vladimir
 "Devotion to the Virgin Mary "  icon in the Tretyakov Gallery. They
 say that the icon exhibited there ,represents an esthetic, and only an
 esthetic, value.~Of course, for an understanding of the esthetic
 value of the  "Devotion "  it is necessary to be aware of the
 symbolism of the icon. At least it is essential to be able to
 distinguish between the  "Devotion "  and the  " Oranta. "
 20.  [Innokentiy] Well, this is simple. What is not understood is
 something else: how can the religious content of works of
 ecclesiastical art be torn away and the perception of its esthetic
 form retained? And if you call to mind the iconography ~f.the Holy
 Mother, permit me to note that the only argument cited in the
 literature in favor of this kind of division is that the
 representation is  " as if alive."  That is a11! I do not see any
 serious grounds for so categorical a division between the religious
 and the esthetic. Depending on your convictions, you may believe, for
 example, in the  "phenomenalism "  of the icon and cross yourself or
 simply experience a shock from its inner depth. But in any event it
 is essential to understand the meaning instated in the :hole work,
 without reservations of the "on the one-fiand=.-andon -the-o-ther---------------
 hand..."  type. Unfortunately, the revival of interest in the culture
 of the past here is being combined with a horrifying lack of
 knowledge about the elementary questions of doctrine and religious
 practice.
 21.  [Batygin] There can be no doubt that we should all know as much
 as possible about the history of our own people.  Intellectual
 darkness and ignorance, of course, can become a basis for atheism,
 but who needs this kind of atheism? If orthodoxy is our traditional
 doctrine we must have an adequately complete idea about its dogma and
 religious practice. However, Islam, 3udaism, Catholicism, a number of
 Protestant denominations, Buddhism, and Shamanism also exist in the
 USSR, and no one would be hindered from learning about them at what
 might be called first hand rather. than just from the  "Atheist's
 Handbook."  Yes, I have in mind freedom to teach and st4dy religion,
 which is not banned by Soviet law. Sihat is banned is another matter.
 Without going into the niceties of the legislation on cults--and
 there are many  "niceties "  here--let me say that we are still not
 observing full glasnost in this sphere.
 22.  I would like to touch on another subject about which they prefer
 to remain silent. Sooner or later death comes to every person. Many
 people have a materialistic attitude toward this but there are people
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 who need confession, even if only for consolation. Attempts to talk
 seriously about replacing the words of a pastor with some greater
 effectiveness for some ritual service seem to me cynical.
 23.  However, the main thing promoting the elimination of the  "line
 of prohibition "  is possession of information.  No prohibitions on
 knowledge are in line with the legal establishments of civilized
 society, but our need for knowledge about religion is very great.
 This can be seen from the great demand for books that provide a
 scientific description of religious doctrine, hopefully without
 commentaries that are insulting for believers and unpleasant to read
 even for a person with no religious convictions. I happened to
 encounter a certain variety of coercive-- phantasmagoric!--blasphemy.
 Glued into a book of quotations from Holy Scripture... Here it-was,
 the  "wiles of history " ! The quotations cut from books that are the
 apotheosis of senseless cynicism triumphant--Leo Taksil's  "The Bible
 for Laughs "  and  "The Gospel for Laughs."  Truly they know not what
 they do.
 2k.  We find the sources of the Russian literary tradition in
 Metropolitan Ilarion's  "The Word of the Law and Heaven."  Why then
 today, when the recreation of our cultural legacy is taking place by
 moving toward truth and life is the Bible--the book that mankind has
 held in reverence for millennia (and today in many countries in the
 world oaths are sworn on the Bible, and not-~t-~1 out -ref--      -
 naivete)--if not banned here, then in extremely short supply? What if
 its content is far remote from dialectical materialism and historical
 materialism. What if someone does not accept that the Ward is
 divinely inspired; a person reading even a small part of it must
 experience the illumination of true light, that state of
 "trepidation "  (I use the words of S.S. Averintsev, spoken by him
 with respect to a contemporary  "rethinking"  of the topic of the
 Gospels) that arises when one is concerned with a miracle. I am
 convinced that despite the shifts that have been planned, the problem
 remains what might be called painful. The Bible is essential not only
 for the millions of believers but for any person of culture.
 25.  Confessing a faith is another matter. This is a matter of
 personal choice and freedom of conscience. The issue is quite clear
 to me. No one, even less today, bans the study of doctrine and the
 history of religion. At least our and your generations do not
 remember the times when churches were being destroyed.
 26.  [Innokentiy] But the issue is not clear to me. Here you have a
 newspaper cutting on your desk. Let me read the ABC that reminded me
 of my own candidness. The author writes that the people should know
 their own history, their own heroes. Then he points out the
 directions of social thinking that  "they understand "  differently.
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 Here:  "The fourth direction (for myself, let me add: I as a
 Christian and an Orthodox theologian follow this direction) unearths
 and restores the old Orthodox times. Not only what is artistically
 beautiful (on which there is no argument, it is essential) but
 everything Orthodox, `sacred.' And for this we count from 1917. It
 really was a turning point, including for the `sacred'; it really did
 `cut the ground away' from under the `sacred.' And if Orthodoxy is
 regarded as our history then, yes, this history was indeed cut away
 from under, and rightly so."  This was written not in the years of
 repression but today, in the period of perestroyka.
 27.  Forgive me for such an extensive quote, .but I want to show you
 that. the  "ideology of cutting the ground away "  is alsc, well known
 to our generation. As if someone has a supreme prerogative to show
 people what can be  "unearthed "  in history and what cannot, a
 prerogative to sort out the historical past into the  "beautiful "
 and the  "old Orthodox times."
 28.  Here is another example testifying at least to the lack of
 understanding of religious culture. Early this year the draft
 "Provisions on Procedure for Publishing Books, Brochures and
 Publications by Authors "  was published.  To some it seems a bold
 step in the direction of democratization.  But see how deeply the
 stereotypes have eaten into the consciousness. The author cannot use
 his own facilities to publish books  " propagandizing war,-v o ence,
 national dissension, racial or national exclusivity, or
 religious-mystical doctrines at variance with the principles of
 communist morality and ethics."  This list speaks for itself through
 the commas. Religious-philosophical literature is set side by side
 with works at variance with constitutional principles. The present
 Constitution permits absolutely all citizens to confess their own
 faith and religious propaganda (despite a~widely held opinion) is
 nowhere banned by present legislation. But freedom for atheistic
 propaganda has long since become the  "talk of the town. "
 29.  [Batygin] Permit me, but various religious organizations have
 the opportunity to make use of state printing houses...
 30.  [Innokentiy] And have you seen many publications put out by
 religious organizations, or tried to acquire them?
 31.  [Batygin] I saw the church calendar in your office, but I have
 not tried to acquire a Bible, or rather  "get hold "  of one from a
 speculator.
 32.  [Innokentiy] Meanwhile the publishing section of the Moscow
 Patriarchy has no opportunity to provide Orthodox Christians even
 with a church calendar.
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 33.  However, let us return to the question of question the Russian
 spiritual legacy. We have dwelled on the fact that we do have
 scholars, laymen and church people devoted to the cause of preserving
 the monuments of history. Interest in ancient Russian is growing in
 the consciousness of the people. You have on your bookshelf a
 beautifully bound, compact and inexpensive edition of the  "Trinity "
 anthology compiled by G.I. Vzdornov-- the highest achievement of
 ancient Russian art. Thank God that there is not so much foreign text
 as in similar publications.
 34.  No, I am in no way against propaganda of our art abroad.  But it
 is quite obvious that it is primarily the Russian ,people who should
 be given broad access to their own history and culture. Do what you
 will, it is still impossible to separate the lofty beauty of the
 "Trinity " --the icons--from the idea of the Divine Trinity. Permit
 me to open the book acid read one piece:  "The image determines the
 balance found between the soul and the spirit, the flesh and
 ethereality, feeling and thought, life and death, suffering and the
 passionless, eternal and immortal existence in heaven. And because of
 its amazing multiple layers, equaled nowhere else, Rublev's `Trinity'
 has been and remains equally arresting both for the theological
 scholar and for the ordinary person who looks in it far an image of
 consolation when building his own life."
 35.  [BatyginJ Obviously no one has the right to dictate to a person
 the method whereby he perceives cultural values.  He must also take
 up freedom of choice, and responsibility for his own position in
 life. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it is much easier and simpler to
 exist in an atmosphere of rigid prohibitions and proscriptions, in an
 atmosphere in which there is no burden of choice, and hence no
 responsibility to one's own conscience and to people.  "Authorized
 freedom "  frees us of responsibility.  If it is said that ancient
 orthodoxy is bad then there is no need to think or doubt:  "cutting
 the ground from under one's feet"  <the very phrase is not only
 symbolic but also ominous and factious--it is common knowledge that
 during the period of repression the believers shared totally in the
 fate of their own people).
 36.  A proclaimed  "truth "  about the reactionary nature of  "the
 clergy "  was not necessary for many in their arguments. B. Pasternak
 spoke very accurately about. the self-proof of truths proclaimed by
 the revolution. It is amazing, but violence in the sphere of
 spiritual life is also a unique manifestation of freedom of thought
 (again Pasternak:  "The man who is not free always idealizes his
 bondage " ), and at the same time a fetishization of  "the people."
 Instead of roughly drawn democratic decorations we have ochlocracy
 and domination by those dark forces that deprive people of their
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 reason and. turn the people into a mob. There is no place for the
 individual here. The monolithic massif discards and des*roys
 individuality and `differentness."  And all the same, religion is
 the main thing that enables a person to find within himself the
 strength not to follow the majority to evil and manage *o retain his
 faith. Even the daily expectation that they will force him to silence
 by knocking away the stool from under him or by some other method
 does not stop him. In this sense Pavel Florenskiy, SergFy Bulgakov,
 Andrey Platonov, Osip Mandelstam and millions of other people
 suffered the same fate. alas it a matter of religiosity? Even today
 under conditions of democracy in the ascendant, public cpinion is
 polarized: we can in no way become accustomed to the existence of a
 different position or recognize pluralism of opinion and evaluations.
 It would seen that we have no other way than to remain homogeneous
 and monolithic to the point of impermeability. But the times are
 changing. The process of revival of the cultural legacy and of the
 historical memory of the people is under way. We are also observing a
 revival of religious values, even if in the form of the attraction of
 neophytes. Here it is important to see the ground on which the fruits
 of freedom of thought are growing-- " by their fruits ye-shall know
 them."  This is~not simply because now in the'social atmosphere there
 is too much that is superficial, some kind of cursory parboiling; it
 is also benighted calm deep down.
 37.  Let me give you an example. Various~cinds-of--dabs-ting-Flubs-,-----____._________.__
 societies, associations and circles are now springing up like
 mushrooms after the rain. A huge hall is filled to overflowing, and
 the social scientists and journalists stand there on the stage. A
 professor explains how to combine the plan and the .market, how the
 predictions have been made. He is given a few minutes up there on the
 stage, with the lamp burning, and when th public gets bored the
 speaker looks around cautiously... And already the hall is impatient
 and someone whistles from somewhere. But although the professor is a
 experienced person he does not know how to control the audience. And
 then it is all over: disruption! Disruption of the economy,
 disruption of the family, disruption of the school, disruption of
 science, disruption'of culture, disruption of atomic power... Let the
 Ministry of Defense take it all under public control! Tt.e hall
 explodes with applause, eyes water, hearts beat-- "let's do itl"     '
 38.  Under the conditions of perestroyka and freedom of thought
 combined with a shortage of information, we would very much like to
 hear, even from the side,  "what is all this? "  Tell us about things
 under Yezhov, under Trotskiy, who killed Kirov? why did you not write
 this in Kaganovich's time? where is the 'full text of the Khrushchev
 report?  the masonic Jews burned the Troitsa-Sergiyev monastery, let
 us have the `Famyat"  sociological center, the keepers of the faith
 are the vanguard of perestroyka... Enough! The following analogy
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 comes to mind: a pendulum of the public frame of mind swung for so
 long to the right and now swinging sharply to the left, and then to
 the right again, and some tithe is required for it to reach
 equilibrium.
 39.  [Innokentiy] What is needed is not time but wisdom, or, more
 accurately, what in Orthodox ascetic practice is called the wisdom of
 humility [smirennomudriye] for a sober and comprehensive examination
 of the historical experience of the past--ancient and modern--and
 recognition of our own responsibility for it by right of national
 legacy.
 40.  [Batygin] Do you think that a national spirit of the Russian
 people exists, can it be considered the  "keeper of the faith " ? How
 is the national question resolved in the Orthodox theology?
 41.  [Innokentiy] In the Orthodox ecclesiology (the teaching on the
 Church) it is resolved simply. The Church is shaped according to the
 attribute of the land, that is, the place of one's residence. The
 Russian Orthodox Church is the orthodox church in Russia but not a
 church for Russians. Historically, representatives of many
 nationalities have made up its clergy and flock, and never in the
 thousand-year history has our Church known the problem c,f  "national
 purity. "
 42.  In general, the problem of the foreigner does not exist in the
 Church as a Christian community. I recall the words of the apostle
 Paul when addressing the diverse national, class and property
 relationships among the Christian community in Galatia--an area in
 Asia Minor--during the first decades of the existence of
 Christianity:  "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ
 have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, these is neither
 bondman nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all
 one in Christ Jesus."
 43.  As far as the Russian people are concerned, this is a great
 nation. And not only in the geographical sense but also the spiritual
 and cultural sense. And if you talk about the Russian national
 self-awareness, as for the Orthodox self-awareness, ther. nationalism
 is alien to it. The problem of nationalism it not a theological
 problem but a sociological problem, but it seems that nationalism can
 be understood and even justified in small ethnic groups located
 within a multinational environment. Here, nationalism is justified to
 the extent that it does not pass beyond the confines of a people's
 spiritual self-determination. And as far as I know, as un historian,
 Russian nationalism must be a deviation from our culture and from
 Russian spiritual traditions. Today it is even difficult to separate
 it from lack of culture and lack of spirituality.
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 44.  [Batyginj We have really come round to talking about  "Pamyat."
 And I would like to recall that some representatives of.the
 assaciation long ago advanced the slogan  "Orthodoxy as Homeland " ...
 45.  [Innokentiy] Let us first of all examine what we mean by
 "Pamyat."  We have read articles in newspapers and journals and,
 moreover, we have at our disposal separate testimony frum
 eyewitnesses. It is not certain that those people who represent
 themselves as members of the association have a proper right to do
 so. I am net convinced that  "Pamyat "  exists as a orgau.ization fn
 the full sense of the word. But at least neither you nor I know its
 composition or program.
 46.  Preservation of the monuments of Russian culture is one of
 " Pamyat's "  aims. This aim is acceptable to all of us.  But we are
 evidently not interested in the  "Pamyat "  association as such but
 with its associated trend of nationalistic activism. It is possible
 that  "Pamyat"  is a myth. I hear from people who call themselves
 members of the association that they are against nationalistic
 slogans and demagoguery.
 47.  Let me note that using the outward attributes of Orthodox
 theology in combination with the propaganda of ideas dreamed up by
 those who essentially advocate enmity and ~oli~ieal-force-test-ifies__~_____
 to the ignorance and demagogic nature of these kinds of declarations.
 A superficial knowledge is worse than no knowledge at all.  Evidently
 having read in popular publications that the  "church people "  at one
 time proclaimed Moscow as a  "third Rome,"  the Russophile
 nationalists have seized on this phrase. But they fail to take into
 account the fact that when Filofey talked about a  "third Rome "  he
 used the words in a eschatological sense and was talking neither
 about political greatness nor the advance of  "the latest times."
 Nothing is said here in the spirit of majestic-monumental
 exclusivity.
 48.  Finally--and~this is most important--we are obliged to consider
 who is to blame for the destruction of Russian holy things. People
 remember first and foremost the Church of Christ the Savior. In fact,
 the loss of this incomparably beautiful monument to Russian glory is
 irreplaceable. It is mainly Kaganovich who is abused here. But he did
 not do what he is accused of alone, in a desert. It would be more
 correct to raise the question about general national responsibility
 for what happened.  As a historian of the Russian Church, I see
 clearly here a certain share of responsibility on the port of the
 prerevolutionary clergy, which was not adequately engaged in bringing
 enlightenment to the people, first and foremost the peasantry.
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 49.  [Batygin] Whether we want it or not the mass repressions, the
 atmosphere of all-embracing  "vigilance "  cultivated over the
 decades, and the'fear of mutual denunciation have made concern for
 the past misplaced.  Even looking into the past was not without
 danger. The uniquely interpreted idea of  "the new man " --godless,
 loveless, unrepentant--replaced individual responsibility with
 loyalty to the regime. And this is .the only explanation for the
 actions of those who, perhaps sincerely in some kind of strange
 passion, tried to straighten out their own times and not the past.
 One of my friends grew up in the village of Troyebortnoye in Bryansk
 Oblast. He tells how during the Thirties the priest in this tiny
 Russian village was killed, by a shot fired through a window from a
 sawed-off gun. The police never found the killer but the village knew
 who had long had no special liking for the  "long-skirt."  The old
 priest had in fact been neglecting his pastoral duties--he performed
 the baptisms and funeral services when he had to, but mostly he
 worked in his kitchen garden. All the same, an end was made to
 religiosity--even without an order from some authorized agent.
 50.  [Innokentiy] As a Christian I do not settle the accounts.  But
 without an understanding of the past we cannot be full-.`.ledged people
 of the present and the future. Why did doctor of philosophical
 sciences I.A. Kry1ev publish at one time an article in which it was
 "proved "  that religious activists (it was a question ~f a commune
 of teetotalers who were socially. and poli~ically~iarm ess~-aTe
 " enemies of the people." ? And why even today does he accuse writers
 of  "flirting"  with religion? The explanation for this goes far
 beyond the framework of purely personal characteristics. It is the
 business of sociologists to study the genesis and dynamics of
 sociopolitical situations that create the very opportunity for
 political denunciations.
 51.  [Batygin] Already the approach to the problem and the perception
 of the world by pseudo-patriots are deeply eclectic. Strange as it
 may seem, this same approach to the problem is taken by some of their
 " unmaskers."  Religious culture and the demagogic shouts of the
 alleged fighters for the Orthodox past are thrown together in the
 same group.  And moreover, to commit to the real state of class
 affairs is supposedly a petty bourgeois social base for
 religious-political and nationalistic attitudes. With the concept of
 class comes the idea of the individual as the  "spokesman " for
 someone's ob3ectively hostile interests, and this suggests the
 conclusion of intrigues by the special services: the nightmare
 syndrome of persecution grows. As a result we again have the abuse
 and further searches for the enemy.  The circle is closed. Let us be
 consistent in our reasoning.  Who needs the ideology of pogrom? Not
 only not the Russian people. Both the nationalistic appeals and the
 attempt to find behind them a  "petty bourgeoisie "  see~a at least
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 inappropriate. But what social reasons, not necessarily class
 reasons, should be here? We shall not understand the situation if we
 explain everything by intellectual darkness and ignoran~..e.
 52.  [Innokentiyj The issue is broader: what actual trends in public
 life gave rise to  "Pamyat" ? The process of renewal is, apart from
 anything else, also the overcoming of totalitarian,  "dichotomous "
 consciousness, when people perceive a lie not as a deviation but an
 objective reality made aware in our sensations; closing the gap
 between word and deed, and word and word.  "Pamyat"  is trying in its
 own way to close this gap and it it therefore a certain social force
 that cannot be ignored, the more so since some of its supporters
 appeal to Orthodox values.
 53.  [Batyginj I am also deeply in consonance with  " Pamyat's "
 initiatives aimed at preserving the culture of the home and. Other
 people who declare themselves representatives of the association are
 taking an obviously chauvinist position. The impression is being
 created that we have several quite different  "Pamyat"  associations.
 These issues must be discussed in the press and the leaders of the
 movement given an opportunity to speak, and then perhaps what is
 secret will become clear.  Eiowever, in my opinion, there is no
 religiosity as such in the  "orthodox "  initiatives of  "Pamyat."
 There is merely a form of hidden social conflict that is being
 transformed over time under conditions in-whicti-thy-Zriter~ra-----  -- --
 delineating the secular consciousness from the religious is, as it
 were, being dissolved.
 54.  For along time I had no doubt at all that the growth in
 education and secular culture would little by little supplant
 religious belief-- "prejudices " --in people's life.  Today I am ready
 to testify to an increase in true believers among quite well educated
 people. I remember the situation when the fact that the cosmonauts
 recorded nothing resembling heaven in orbit around the Earth was
 considered a serious argument in favor of atheism.  Today these kinds
 of  "arguments "  can elicit only a smile or puzzlement. Obviously
 education and faith are things that are at least not mutually
 exclusive. Again I must recall the name of Pavel Florenskiy's father.
 Mathematician, philosopher, linguist, electrical engineer and
 mechanic, a researcher on permafrost, he was a true Christian, an
 Orthodox priest and theologian. He perished anonymously in the GULAG
 among the millions of martyrs, both believers and nonbelievers.
 55.  One way or another science no longer regards itself as the apex
 of the  "pyramid of knowledge,"  at least it finds shifting sand in
 its own foundation and is turning hopefully to  "metaphysical "
 values and to  "human "  truths.
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 56.  Strange processes are.also taking place in the mass
 consciousness. In the age of general computerization and robotization
 many nonbelievers or those who consider themselves nonbelievers have
 no doubts about the baneful capabilities of the  "evil eye "  and
 believe in magicians and  "flying saucers,'? and also in the holy
 eucharist and the redemption of sin. In the West they talk
 increasingly about a religious renaissance in the USSR. It must be
 acknowledged that these processes are unexpected for Soviet
 sociologists.
 57.  Along with other journalists I recently talked with the leaders
 of unofficial youth associations. The representative for  "  Sistemy "
 (an analogue of the hippy movement), Vitaliy, substantiated very
 competently and convincingly refection of the acquisition of araterial
 things and violence in any form, service in the Armed Forces, and
 work-- "for work is essentially slavery."  I asked him how members of
 "Sistemy "  should act in a case in which they needed money or, if
 worst came to worst, to eat. Looking through his pince-nez into space
 Vitaliy said the following:  " Is not the soul food? "  And he went on
 to recall the  "birds of the air "  and the  "grass of the fields."
 No, he is as far removed from the church as, say, a col"lector of
 icons. What is this?  "Excess "  social symbolism typical of fringe
 people, or a form of dissent, or a variety of religion? Is not a
 unique diversification taking place today, a consolidation of
 diversity, of religious values, and their~enet-ration--into-the----------- ------__-
 secular environment and a mixing .with politics, morals, culture, even
 science and economics?
 56.  [Innokentiy] There is a science of the principles of the
 interpretation of texts--hermeneutics--and I am sorry that young
 people remain in ignorance about the true meaning of the, words that
 they have learned. Some kind of awakening of spiritual life really is
 taking place today, accompanied, as you have expressed it, by a
 diversification of religious values. It is not so much a renaissance
 as a  "blind "  search. But of course, there is spiritual
 "fascination "  in enthusiasm for, for example,  " parareligious "
 cults and  "the calling up of spirits,"  or levitation or Krishnaism.
 But these are all transitional forms. And we should not underestimate
 the possibility of the coexistence of diverse, including
 transitional, forms of spiritual life. A person has the chance of
 moving from fascination to a real knowledge of God, a chance of
 gaining spiritual freedom.
 59.  [Batygin] Father Innokentiy, I have a firm hope that over time
 the official or semioffical restrictions on religious life will be
 eased. Already today we see stricter observance of the legislation on
 cults on the part of state organs; at least in the registration of
 new communities is no longer an insoluble problem. The Tolgskiy
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 convent, closed 60 years ago, has become an active cloister for
 women. Monks with medical training will serve in a hospice for the
 aged set up in a monastery. The decision of the Yaroslavl Oblast
 soviet is not an isolated example of fruitful cooperation between
 state and church.
 60.  At the same time, normalization of the position of the church
 and of believers is only just starting in our country. We carry the
 heavy burden of problems  "from the old regime."  In my view, the
 main thing is to make what is secret open. Many enforceable
 enactments, instructions and explanations concerning religious life
 remain a closed book, and too much depends on the personality of the
 person authorized by the USSR Council of Ministers Council on
 Religious Affairs in any given region. He can always say  "No
 provision is made for thisi"  And everything. I have never once heard
 that a dispute between believers and the state has been decided in
 the courts. What I have in mind is civil suits...  Meanwhile, as they
 say among laymen, the game is all at one goal mouth.
 61.  But this is still only half the trouble. Believers find
 themselves in the position of outcasts not at. all because of the
 official separation of church and state. As you have said, a believer
 lives in the same social conditions as any person, and at-first
 glance is not isolated in any way. But, as the apostle said,  " as
 unknown and yet well known." It is diffizult-choow-the-exa~~ words------
 to describe the very complex sociological problem of the position of
 believers in the secular social environment. Here, of course, there
 is not always an articulated allusion, an allusion of dissent, and in
 fact, under conditions of the declared and actually affirmed
 spiritual unity of Soviet people the adoption of nonmaterialist
 convictions means nothing but that until we get the hidden challenges
 and social conflict. But I think that because the phenomenon of
 religious belief itself is perceived by the mass psychology as
 strange "  rather than alien, pseudoconflict is in some way
 remarkable. I am sure that your appearance in a cassock on the street
 makes passersby look round with a so-called unhealthy interest. A
 conversation took place at the institute about the life and teaching
 of a religious philosopher. The rumor had been spread that a real
 monk was coming, perhaps even the archimandrite. The ha'1 was full.
 Even the young girls wanted to watch... But to our astonishment the
 monk was just a normal person.  Even the representative of the party
 burn was disappointed. Shaw was wrong, but~the seminar continued late
 into the might.
 62.  In my opinion, the problem of the coexistence of the church and
 of society is also enrooted here. It cannot be resolved  "from
 above,"  but life itself is already looking for ways to escape from
 the impasse: a person's devotion to-any religious denomination should
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 be perceived as quite ordinary, even if interesting, as something
 fiealthy, or ultimately, with indifference.
 63.  Everything that I am discussing now is variations of the same
 phenomenon: violent alienation of religious culture and religious
 consciousness from the officially approved culture and the
 "standard "  social consciousness--an alienation that is not
 uniformly negative and mutually exclusive, like a plus or minus, but.
 the kind that could be described by Jaspers' paradoxical phrase
 "love-hate."  There is astonishment here, and rejection, and a
 permanent attraction to real values, and hope, and fear... But most
 of all there is an obedience: if it is said that there is no God then
 that means that there is: God is dead and everything is allowed.
 64.  It is impossible not to see in everything that is now happening
 and being retained in our minds the anti-values brought to us since
 the time of the journal BEZBOZHNIK. What is purely human, true and
 lucid, what lives always in the soul, or perhaps the conscience,
 coexists, sometimes quite peacefully, with the awareness of an
 obligation  " to deliver a rebuff."  It seems to me that when we have
 finished recording our conversation here and begin to pass it through
 the editors, from somewhere out of nowhere--at least for us--there
 will arise a desire (addressed at me, a Marxist) to deliver to you an
 ideological rebuff. In the dispute with you I am obliged to  "win,"
 and this is my social role.             -----------------------___
 65.  It is too naive and simple to attribute the relapses of
 ideological bans to Stalinism and point the finger at the past. The
 past is being reproduced every day and the dead seize the living...
 You and Fr Boris Danilenko and other Christians--Orthodox and Old
 Believers--- recently met with junior scholars from a prestigious
 academy institute. I remember the. atmosphere of real interest, trust
 and a desire for the truth, without the slightest hint of people
 trying to foist their opinions on each other. We wanted just one
 thing--to know! And after your departure a continuation of the
 discussion took place at a crossroads in Moscow under the street
 lamps with several young representatives of a high Komsomol organ. In
 the hall they had been observers rather than participants, but here
 they spoke out directly: defects had been permitted in the
 organization of the meeting and atheists had been unable to deliver a
 rebuff to the church people. We were unable to justify ourselves, and
 we included some experts on religion with doctorate degrees.
 66.  What did the Komsomol people have in mind? No matter what, deep
 in their young, clear thinking a scheme had been laid down,
 clear-cut, like an order:  " Us or them."
 67.  The  "strange "  position of believers in society also
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 superimposes a ` `strange "  imprint on their consciousness.  Here we
 see similar problems, but  " in reverse."  The unsatisfactory
 catechization of parishioners is well known, and few understand the
 meaning of the liturgy, and very few know the basis of the Orthodox
 doctrine-- the  "Articles of Faith."  As a result of the low level of
 religiosity in the structure of religious behavior the sphere of
 ritual is over-emphasized, but the main issue remains a man's soul.
 What is happening here? It seems to me that sometimes, even if in
 exceptional cases, religiosity acquires the form of a unique
 cultural-ecological  "  ghetto "  whence a person surveys the world
 with the detestation of an outsider.
 68.  Perhaps future researchers on the destiny of Christianity will
 note among the trials it endures not only persecution (which is
 powerless to destroy the faith) but also spiritual pharisaism,
 devouring--in equal measure--the souls of believers and nonbelievers.
 Let us remember what Pasternak said:  "Everything is drewning in
 pharisaism."
 69.  Why am I absorbed with these generally trivial details?
 Obviously a church separated from the state, or more accurately the
 Orthodox community, possesses one  "advantage "  over other non-state
 public associations, even unofficial ones, namely, it is
 "unofficially "  separated from society and is a certain  "internal
 border "  (I take this idea from the religious-expert~ergey Fi~a~ov~j.
 It is impossible to insure normal activity for any and all
 congregations in a society merely by decree. What is needed is normal
 democracy, political culture and the habit of respect for human
 rights.
 70.  It is not enough to establish freedom of conscience by decree.
 Conscience is the kind of thing that needs no permission; it is or it
 is not. Freedom of religion becomes a reality only when conscience
 becomes a matter of the personal freedom of each person, a matter of
 personal choice. Today we talk about freedom, alternative thinking
 and the need for different thinking and political pluralism. But the
 renewal of life is possible only given the re3ection of the  "image
 of the enemy "  and total acceptance of the doctrine of nonviolence as
 an ethic and principle of the interrelationships between people. And
 of peace as a state of the soul, of moral purity and belief in good.
 There are values that cannot but be sacred for believers and
 nonbelievers if, of course, a person has not lost his humanity. These
 are  "thou shalt not kill, "  "thou shalt not steal,''  "honor thy
 father and thy mother,"  "they shalt not bear false witness " ...
 71.  [Innokentiy] You have talked about peace as a state of the
 soul... The great suppliant of Russia, the Reverend Serafim Sarovskiy
 said:  "Acquire a soul at peace and thousands around you will be
 i
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 saved."  But where should we take this? At the Feast of the Passover
 Christ said to his disciples:  "Peace I leave with you, my peace I
 give unto you: not as the world giveth give I unto you. Let not your
 heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."  And if you talk about
 freedom, then the most important thing here is perhaps ~reedom from
 prejudices, which enslave a person, even when the powers-that-be do
 not hamper political freedom.~How often we see those who are slaves
 to their own passions and pre3udices ruling in a particular social
 sphere! When Z perform the sacrament of baptism and say  " I baptize
 this bondman of God..."  I know that it is precisely this devotion to
 God that brings the person freedom from sin.
 72.  [Batygin] As we wind up this conversation let us try to
 formulate where we have come and what the result is.
 73.  [Innokentiy] As a Christian I make each questioner aware of my
 hopes, and I think that today I have done this, even though only in
 part. As far as the results of this dialogue are concerned, let the
 reader 3udge for himself.   "The time is favorable..."
 74.  COPYRIGHT: Izdatelstvo  " Nauka " ,  " Sotsiologicheskiye
 issledovanniya' ', 1988.

